Does the God of Holy Books Really Exist?

[barlimanbutterbur]

AN ESSAY

Most people believe in God. In fact if a person doesn't believe in God, most other people think there's something wrong with him. Belief in God (or gods) is one of the most fundamental beliefs of the human race. People have been tortured and killed over saying that God doesn't exist, or that the God of this or that religion doesn't exist, or — all too often — saying "My religion is the only correct one and all the others are wrong. YOURS is wrong. YOU'RE wrong." Or "I'm saved and you're going to hell." Or "Convert to my religion or die!" It's one of the most emotional and touchy subjects around, especially these days.

For myself, I believe that no one knows because no one has the ability to know, for the same reasons that a dog can't read: he simply doesn't have the necessary equipment. If he bites a man and he and his owner are taken to court over it, the entire proceedings will be about him, but he is incapable of understanding the slightest thing about what's going on. And I believe this is the case when human beings try to understand Reality.

If a person wears glasses made of red glass, he will never see other colors. He is limited. And I believe the same thing is true of the human bodymind. We can only perceive certain sounds, colors, smells, tastes, and touches. More importantly, his brain is of a certain structure. It has a certain architecture to it, like the operating system of a computer. It creates thoughts which are specific to its structure, and it processes information according to the way it's put together. It cannot do otherwise, somewhat like the way when batter is poured into a waffle iron, the baked waffle will always take the shape of the waffle iron, no matter what the ingredients in the batter.

Let's talk about the nature of Man a bit. One of the basic needs of man is to feel safe, that he has things under control. I think man's natural curiosity helps him to investigate situations to see if they are safe, if something is dangerous or not. Religions claim to give Man the Ultimate Answers to the Ultimate Questions, and so calm his fears about Reality and its origins. Religion claims to tell him the How and Why of Reality, as well as how to behave — and if the religion and the person fit, this belief system may see him through the most hellish experiences of life intact and ready to go on — even if the belief system is not true. We need to believe that ultimately, things are going to be OK! Religions satisfy this need.

But, you may say, what about the experiences that have come down to us through the ages: the visions, what people conclude are miracles, the mystical experiences that come through all religions in all times and places? It is obvious to me that these experiences really happen, and have happened all through the ages and happen even now. The art and science of meditation is thousands of years old, as is the human tendency to have visions (the pejorative term is "hallucination"), which is a closely related phenomenon. But to have an overwhelmingly convincing experience is one thing. To come to the right conclusion about is another. (To see Jesus in a potato chip or Mary on a barn door is the same projective mechanism as seeing elephants and kitty cats in clouds.) If our personal truth is what X or Y religion says is true, we will believe our visions. We usually tie truth to what is strongly emotional. This can be greatly misleading. Strong emotions can lead to unwarranted conclusions. We tend to believe what we want to believe, and if we believe in X or Y religion and have a vision about it, that tends to reinforce our beliefs. But that doesn't mean the conclusion is warranted. We proceed from what we believe, whether we are right, or are mistaken. We cannot deny what we are convinced of is the truth even though it may not be, and it would drive us insane to question our most fundamental experiences. We are hardwired to trust the veracity of our experiences, even though we may come to the wrong conclusions.

Understand: I am not saying categorically that "God" (choose your own religion) doesn't exist. There may very well be some Primary Entity acting with Purpose. But as far as I'm concerned, we have no way to prove it one way or another, and that's why I call myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. As far as I'm concerned, the atheists have religionized atheism and defend it just as rabidly as some believers defend religions.

I find religions to be divided into two parts: The first part is the well of wisdom, truth and common sense that is common to all humanity. That's the part that's valuable. That's the part we can all agree on. The second part is the specific doctrine of each religion, and that's where the madness and the killing comes in: the differences among the Jewish, Christian and Islamic versions of what happens after death. The differences about how to live life while one is alive. And notice that all the trouble is coming not from Hinduism or Buddhism, not from the various American Indian or African or South or Central American Indian religions, not from secular humanism or the various philosophies of the world — but from the whole Judeo-Christian religious conglomerate. And it's the whole "I'm right you're wrong" thing that leads to holy wars. And no doctrine can be proved either true or false.

So I reject religious doctrines because they can't be proven one way or another. For me, they are the stuff of myth, of legend, and that's why I say that the notion of "God" as described in all holy books, be they from an Eastern or Western or any other religion is a figment of Man's imagination, just as are all the gods of Hinduism and Buddhism, and the whole pantheon of Greek and Egyptian gods, and all the gods of all the religions of tribes we know nothing about.

What it comes down to for me is behavior, and this is what such religions as Buddhism and Universal Unitarianism and the philosophy of secular humanism emphasize. I say that one doesn't have to believe in a "God" of some sort to be a good person. All that is necessary is to behave with compassion and cooperation: loving cooperation and appreciation of differences. It comes down to how you treat yourself and others. It comes down to what little kids say, in their innocent wisdom: "Be nice!"

In closing, I want to quote the Buddha:

•••

Do not believe in what you have only heard about;
Do not believe in traditions merely because they have been handed down for many generations;
Do not believe anything merely because it is rumored and spoken of by many;
Do not believe a source merely because it claims to be divine;
Do not believe merely because of the written statement of some old sage;
Do not believe in mere conjecture;
Do not believe merely in the authority of your teachers and elders.

Better than worshipping gods is following the ways of goodness.
After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. Be a lamp unto thyself.

•••

Be nice. That will solve everything.

Barley

[Angoreth]

AN ESSAY

Most people believe in God. In fact if a person doesn't believe in God, most other people think there's something wrong with him. Belief in God (or gods) is one of the most fundamental beliefs of the human race. People have been tortured and killed over saying that God doesn't exist, or that the God of this or that religion doesn't exist, or — all too often — saying "My religion is the only correct one and all the others are wrong. YOURS is wrong. YOU'RE wrong." Or "I'm saved and you're going to hell." Or "Convert to my religion or die!" It's one of the most emotional and touchy subjects around, especially these days.

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Reply:
You are quite right most people do believe in a higher power that they refer to as 'God. In fact, it's intrinsic to our very nature (That means it's natural.)
When a person says he doesn't believe in 'god', usually all one has to do is look at his or her (here after in less a specific person is being addressed, please consider 'his' to be a 'generic', and gender neutral) lifestyle, and you'll find a 'god' he is worshiping of his own making and in his own way and he has in his self-righteousness simply overlooked it. A sports fanatic worships sports as his god, a scholar worships knowledge as his, etc. etc.

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For myself, I believe that no one knows because no one has the ability to know, for the same reasons that a dog can't read: he simply doesn't have the necessary equipment. If he bites a man and he and his owner are taken to court over it, the entire proceedings will be about him, but he is incapable of understanding the slightest thing about what's going on. And I believe this is the case when human beings try to understand Reality.

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Reply:
For starters most dogs aren't as simple as people make them out to be. Nor other animals . A dog might not be able to read per se. But it can read the environment and his owners attitude and presence. The dog knows when his owner is present or not. Stressed or not, and so on. Most domestic animals can relate to right and wrongs even if in different circumstances they relate to different things. Such is the same case with cultures.
If a dog is raised by a sadistic person it doesn't reason out that savagely attacking someone is bad. It's not that it doesn't have the capacity, that is simply it's isolated environment or culture.
A dog that has been raised to be protective of it's family, yet nips at a child will know it's done wrong and in most cases will literally try to hide. That is cognizant ability.
So, you are for all intent and purposes mistaken in what you openly declare is your opinion. In other words, just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.
The Koran teaches that if you are not Muslim, then you are an infidel and must convert by sword or death. Christianity is suppose to teach a kingdom not bound by worldly governments, but it's a sovereign kingdom in and of itself that earthly governments don't control.
Well meaning, but terribly mistaken people think they are going to make a kingdom on earth by force, and distort Christianity. This is just as wrong as Islam.

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If a person wears glasses made of red glass, he will never see other colors. He is limited. And I believe the same thing is true of the human body mind. We can only perceive certain sounds, colors, smells, tastes, and touches. More importantly, his brain is of a certain structure. It has a certain architecture to it, like the operating system of a computer. It creates thoughts which are specific to its structure, and it processes information according to the way it's put together. It cannot do otherwise, somewhat like the way when batter is poured into a waffle iron, the baked waffle will always take the shape of the waffle iron, no matter what the ingredients in the batter.

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Reply:
You seem to believe a lot it seems. But so far, haven't produced anything to validate your beliefs.
Ingredients just like beliefs are terribly important.
Too much liquid (opinions) and the batter will simply pour out of the mold, and all over the place uncontrolled.
Not enough and the dough is too rigid(dogmatic) to submit to the pressure whether gently or harsh.
So once again, you are assuming all is appropriate to begin with.
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Let's talk about the nature of Man a bit. One of the basic needs of man is to feel safe, that he has things under control. I think man's natural curiosity helps him to investigate situations to see if they are safe, if something is dangerous or not. Religions claim to give Man the Ultimate Answers to the Ultimate Questions, and so calm his fears about Reality and its origins. Religion claims to tell him the How and Why of Reality, as well as how to behave — and if the religion and the person fit, this belief system may see him through the most hellish experiences of life intact and ready to go on — even if the belief system is not true. We need to believe that ultimately, things are going to be OK! Religions satisfy this need.
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Reply:
First, what is natural? You have to have a standard or starting point to even know what you're talking about. For you to say, "Let's talk about natural man' gives a precise starting point. Your whole paragraph argues against a starting point. What you are actually promoting here is what is considered the "chaos theory".
To begin with, if man has a 'natural' curiosity...we must assume it has function and purpose. If man is looking for a 'bigger picture...then he must have a reason to suspect a bigger picture exists. Otherwise. Everyone would simply assume that when your dead...you rot... the end. But pretty much world wide that is not the case. And truthful most religions really don't teach that everything will be okay.
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But, you may say, what about the experiences that have come down to us through the ages: the visions, what people conclude are miracles, the mystical experiences that come through all religions in all times and places? It is obvious to me that these experiences really happen, and have happened all through the ages and happen even now. The art and science of meditation is thousands of years old, as is the human tendency to have visions (the pejorative term is "hallucination"), which is a closely related phenomenon. But to have an overwhelmingly convincing experience is one thing. To come to the right conclusion about is another. (To see Jesus in a potato chip or Mary on a barn door is the same projective mechanism as seeing elephants and kitty cats in clouds.) If our personal truth is what X or Y religion says is true, we will believe our visions. We usually tie truth to what is strongly emotional. This can be greatly misleading. Strong emotions can lead to unwarranted conclusions. We tend to believe what we want to believe, and if we believe in X or Y religion and have a vision about it, that tends to reinforce our beliefs. But that doesn't mean the conclusion is warranted. We proceed from what we believe, whether we are right, or are mistaken. We cannot deny what we are convinced of is the truth even though it may not be, and it would drive us insane to question our most fundamental experiences. We are hardwired to trust the veracity of our experiences, even though we may come to the wrong conclusions.

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Reply:
To a degree you are right....But...then again you are wrong. Many people are uneducated, about their own religious beliefs. Sadly this has largely been done on purpose. Christianity. True Christianity is intellectual. Jesus said NOT to seek signs. Jesus had no problems debating or teaching anyone. He wasn't afraid to argue points.
I was an atheist for 22 years, and hated Christians with a passion. I would go on one man crusades and simply destroy the faith of countless Christians because they didn't know what their bibles truly said, and I used it against them like a baseball bat.
But as I was reading stuff in the bible to use against Christians and started cross referencing material with science and history, I realized these Christians really were idiots when it came to what the Bible said...But the Bible itself, held up to my scrutiny. So I became a Christian despite most of the Christians I knew of...not because of them. Now I teach the ones who want to spend the time to debate people like you.
Our beliefs are tenacious.. but not hardwired. Again you are in error and have not made your case. Anyone can change.
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Understand: I am not saying categorically that "God" (choose your own religion) doesn't exist. There may very well be some Primary Entity acting with Purpose. But as far as I'm concerned, we have no way to prove it one way or another, and that's why I call myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. As far as I'm concerned, the atheists have religionized atheism and defend it just as rabidly as some believers defend religions.

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Reply:
Actually 1. philosophically, 2. mathematically, and 3. physically it has been proven. Technically.
1. Philosophically every culture on the planet believes in a god at least in some form. Some believe in multiple gods, but there is always a supreme power or energy that is the boss...and in every culture people claim to have had supernatural experiences with their claimed entity. That is proven.
2. Mathematically, all creation (as far as science has been able to tell, so far--and we're talking as far as the Hubble can see) is mathematically precise to the point that it defies their CRAY computers to calculate any discrepancies that even their super computers wouldn't include as proper. That is proven.
3.Physically The Old Testament scriptures tell us in that the Beginning, Elohim (this is a plural singular word which encompasses the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit) God created.... The New Testament scriptures tells us that everything that is created is being held together By the spoken word of Yahshua (Jesus). Science has discovered a paradigm. There seems to be substance that they know it's there just as we know air is there. And it appears to be the substance that holds everything together. I read an article on it...way back in... I don't know maybe it was '98 or '99. Back then they had just discovered it, they claimed, and they just called it dark matter. Maybe they have a name for it now. That is proven.

There is more documentation to prove Jesus lived, died and resurrected, Then there is to prove William Shakespeare ever even existed.
Creation when you look at all of it, it defies reason and common sense to think it could be chaotic or random chance… It is mathematically not possible.
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I find religions to be divided into two parts: The first part is the well of wisdom, truth and common sense that is common to all humanity. That's the part that's valuable. That's the part we can all agree on. The second part is the specific doctrine of each religion, and that's where the madness and the killing comes in: the differences among the Jewish, Christian and Islamic versions of what happens after death. The differences about how to live life while one is alive. And notice that all the trouble is coming not from Hinduism or Buddhism, not from the various American Indian or African or South or Central American Indian religions, not from secular humanism or the various philosophies of the world — but from the whole Judeo-Christian religious conglomerate. And it's the whole "I'm right you're wrong" thing that leads to holy wars. And no doctrine can be proved either true or false.
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Reply:
I only know a little bit about Buddhism. Hinduism however, Is very cruel to it's own lower caste adherents and holds them in servitude in what is called caste societies which is not only for life, but forever, thru your children.. It's not all cute and fuzzy so don't get the wrong idea.
All aboriginal cultures have their idiosyncrasies. Many were, just as we can be...down right dangerous to their neighbors. If they had the populations reversed, based on historical evidence, you might not as comfortable as you are right now. Your whole statement is based purely on conjecture without accounting for population density and deficiency reversals.
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So I reject religious doctrines because they can't be proven one way or another. For me, they are the stuff of myth, of legend, and that's why I say that the notion of "God" as described in all holy books, be they from an Eastern or Western or any other religion is a figment of Man's imagination, just as are all the gods of Hinduism and Buddhism, and the whole pantheon of Greek and Egyptian gods, and all the gods of all the religions of tribes we know nothing about.

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Reply:
I agree in rejecting doctrine as well. Jesus rejected doctrine. The Pharisees had plenty of doctrines and Jesus rejected them. That's why they hate Him.
He was messing up their religion by making it personal instead of their dogmatic bunch of rules that they only followed in public.
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What it comes down to for me is behavior, and this is what such religions as Buddhism and Universal Unitarianism and the philosophy of secular humanism emphasize. I say that one doesn't have to believe in a "God" of some sort to be a good person. All that is necessary is to behave with compassion and cooperation: loving cooperation and appreciation of differences. It comes down to how you treat yourself and others. It comes down to what little kids say, in their innocent wisdom: "Be nice!"

In closing, I want to quote the Buddha:

•••

Do not believe in what you have only heard about;
Do not believe in traditions merely because they have been handed down for many generations;
Do not believe anything merely because it is rumored and spoken of by many;
Do not believe a source merely because it claims to be divine;
Do not believe merely because of the written statement of some old sage;
Do not believe in mere conjecture;
Do not believe merely in the authority of your teachers and elders.

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Reply:
Again I'd like to point out... that you are starting your opinion without a full proposal. Buddhism and most other 'isms are about self. How to improve yourself. you.. you.. you.. But aside from that let me point out a few things.
1. Hindus have nukes, and still behead people. Although it is officially illegal it is still to this day, rumored that human sacrifice is not unheard of in many villages.
2.The most noted Secular Humanists of the day, appeared before Congress during the Carter administration and proposed... (officially.. It's in the department of congressional reports) that the world's population be cut by at least a third, but two thirds would be optimal. And they would like to enforce a caste society world wide...for economic stability...of course.
So if you would like to live as a pooper scooper or street sweeper for the rest of your life with no chance of promotion or raise....ever! You go for it!


This is the little I read about Buddha.
Buddha means exalted one. One of the dangers of religious bondage is when we become more than we are.
The so-called prince who became Buddha proclaimed himself Buddha or 'exalted one', once he 'felt' he became that way.
Yep! the feeling just POPPED right up. And since he was all by himself with no one around, he told the earth to be his witness...and so it was.
the fact of the matter is this...This would have meant little to the lower caste because that is what he would have been was since the day he was born.
In caste societies you are born to a status and CANNOT work your way up a social ladder.

While many western preacher have distorted Christianity to sound like these other religions, Christianity is to be about others.
Jesus said there were two commandments, "The greatest commandment is this...Love Yahweh, Elohim (the Lord your God) with all your heart, soul and mind. The second is like it...Love your neighbor just as much as you love yourself."
Who's your neighbor?...Everyone who is not you.
Jesus defined religion as looking after orphans and widows.
The Book still reads the same. It hasn't changed from Jesus' walk on earth to this day. But how it's being taught and therefore, understood and applied, has changed.

And again, I'd like to say that you base all your assumptions of what is right or wrong on how to treat people on a moral imperative. Where did this moral imperative come from. As a believer in God, I can say God taught me moral imperatives through His writings and instructions as it were. It is wrong to kill, steal, lie, mark cards, etc.
Without a moral imperative you can't define what is right or wrong because there is no absolute. You only have what you have used so far...opinions and assumptions, without any backing. In other words...Your whole belief system is lacking, because you have no foundation as a staging area to base your argument from.
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Better than worshipping gods is following the ways of goodness.
After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. Be a lamp unto thyself.
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Reply:
Again, goodness is a moral imperative.
If we just happened, or, god was just energy with no personality. If it were just a 'thing' to help us evolve...Then 'good' would be nothing more than an opinion, therefore not binding on mankind as an absolute. I wouldn't have to be good because good is not an absolute. I could steal, kill and destroy with impunity... and a few people might get upset...but that's just their opinion.
However...Good has been proven to be a moral Standard, therefore it is a law… Therefore it is absolute and it has purpose.

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•••

Be nice. That will solve everything.

Barley

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Reply:
Upper caste Hindus are very nice as they forcefully have lowered caste Hindus' children taken from their homes to work in fields at pre-teen ages for pennies a day.

Politicians are very nice as they sit idly by and line their pockets with the profits from high gas prices and war product over-spending.

Doctors are very nice to young girls as they abort their unborn babies and scar the girls for life.

I understand euthanasia is legal in several European countries. I'm sure those doctors as well, are very nice to the patients they are killing.

So...When can I expect everything to be solved?

[barlimanbutterbur]

Wow! First of all, let me thank you for your thoughtful responses, and the time you took.

I am responding merely off the top of my head, because I don't want to get into it point by point with you, because I am not trying to compete with your beliefs, nor am I trying to convince you of anything. In the essay I was merely laying out my own beliefs, acquired over a long life which included a lot of cogitating and spiritual seeking.

In several places you say I am "wrong." That implies you are "right." That strikes me as a very doctrinaire religious attitude, one that could be taken as intolerance to some degree. I assume it's because what I say doesn't hold up to what you think would hold more water. That's fine. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm no more right or wrong than you are. Obviously you've given a great deal of thought to what you believe as have I. It's no wonder that, with our different histories and experiences, we have come to different conclusions.

Nothing you say makes me want to adjust my thoughts, and I assume nothing I have said has adjusted yours -- but that's fine, I'm not a proselitizer.

There is a difference, by the way, between Hindus and Hinduism, a point you seem not to have distinguished, and one I think is important. A religion is one thing, its adherents another, and how well they adhere to what the religion calls for in terms of belief and behavior is yet another. Same for all other religions. So don't blame religion per se for the behavior of its followers.

I wonder why it was that you felt so angry and hostile toward Christians when you were an atheist, but you don't need to tell me, I merely note it in passing. And then you became one yourself. Fascinating.

I respect that you now see the world through the filter of Christianity and believe in the Christian version of God, and that all that satisfies you — which is probably the reason you have such trouble accepting so much of what I was saying. That's OK too.

FYI: In my time I flirted briefly with Christianity (actually it was Christian Science), Judaism for about 15 years, and a deep involvement with Hinduism for almost 20. Now I'm a kind of "Joseph Campbell guy," taking a metaview of all religion. These days I find my personal beliefs more in line with the general tenets of Buddhism. I outlined the Buddhist quotes which match my own beliefs in the essay.

As far as I'm concerned, no one belief is the Truth. The thing for me is this: as William James said, we each have the right to follow our own beliefs at our own risk. I strongly believe that no one should ram his own beliefs down anyone else's throat. That is one of the worst forms of arrogance and intolerance. For me, it all boils down to "be nice," or "How well am I treating myself and how well am I treating you?" All the rest is detail.

Barley

[barlimanbutterbur]

"Enough with the One God Stuff" by James Foley
www.alternet.org/stories/42025/

Couldn't have said it better m'self!

Barley