Gandalf's power

[erinion]

When Gandalf returned, he said he was supposed to be Saruman. Does this mean that he had the power of influence with his voice? Or any other of the powers Saruman had? And if so, wouldn't he have lost his former powers? And what of the elven ring? Did he still carry that when he died?

[Angoreth]

I remember something at the end of LOTR About Galadriel, Celeborn and Gandalf sitting around a fire and discussing the three rings I think. I think Gandalf still had his.
Also, when he spoke to Theoden and commanded Sourman out of him, would that be considered power with his voice?

Idk though if he would lose his other powers, wouldn't they just grow? If he learned them, I don't think he would lose them. Unless his memory failed him lol

[Majimaune]

Well I frankly wouldn't have a clue. But he would have some power with his voise wouldnt he?

[fanficfan]

Saying that he is Saruman is a bit misleading. He's not Saruman as in has all his powers and stuff. More that he is playing the part that Saruman was supposed to play, The White Wizard, the ultimate good guy.
The theory I'm about to put forth is mostly speculation, but I think it makes sense.
Gandalf the Grey had a choice in Moria, he knew that if he stayed and fought the balrog that he would almost definately die, but the others would get away. I also speculate that he also knew that if he "borrowed" the ring from Frodo, he could likely kick tha balrog's but seven ways from sundown.
I speculate that if he had used the ring he would have become much like Saruman was, addicted to the power, and would have taken Sauron's place as the Dark Lord. Gandalf was far too good a person to do that, so he stood and faced to beast down with his own power.
The end result is ofcourse, that he dies, but he takes down mister Balrog first. It could very easily have been written that he survived the battle, and hitched a ride with Gwahir to catch up with everyone. But then he'd still have been Gandalf the Grey. The reason Gandalf died and was reborn is because the White Wizard had been corrupted, and a new one we needed. So the Valar sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth.
I don't think he just got Saruman's power and lost his. I think that he got both, and many more besides, and they were greatly augmented. He didn't seem to have any real problem casting Saruman out of Theoden's body, and with his voice he Commanded Saruman, the master of such powers, to throw down his staff.

There are several games that have rules for Gandalf and other characters from LotR, but I don't think they accurately represent him as the White Wizard. His powers are basically the same as the ones he has as Gandalf the Grey, but a bit stronger. Imho, he should be second only to Sauron himself in terms of power after his return.


hmm, I seem to have run out of steam for this train of though, however, discuss and I shall return to add more later.

[Majimaune]

Very nice Mitch. Never thought of all that myself.

[erinion]

Yeah, okay, your points make sense. But what was the other choice in Moria? To run and have the Balrog follow, all the way to Lorien or wherever they went? Seems like it's a choice with no choice.

And Gandalf wouldn't have taken the Ring from Frodo. Even if he had said he would give it back, somehow he would have convinced them all to let him keep it. Remember, it had been offered to him earlier, and he said no because it would overpower him?

[Majimaune]

Gandalf just had power like/equal to Saroman's. Not in the voice though.

[fanficfan]

erinion - That's why the choice was there. If he had of taken the ring he could have saved them all, destroyed the Balrog, probably cleansed Moria too. But it would have corrrupted him. He chose to sacrifice himself to save the others, rather than bring another dark age upon the world. Thus for one as pure and good as Gandalf, there was only the one choice. No other would have sufficed. If he'd have taken the ring he'd have become Gandalf the Black, or Gandalf of many colours.

Gandalf just had power like/equal to Saroman's. Not in the voice though.

Or not... Sorry but I gotta argue with you on that. Even as Gandalf the Grey his powers were nothing like that of Saruman's.
Gadalf inspires people to great deeds, Saruman manipulates them to his own ends. The reason Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf was because he recognised that in him, and knew that the Ring of Fire would help him rekindle the spark of hope when all seemed lost. Cirdan knew that Gandalf would need such power,

"Take this ring," he said "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

When Gandalf became the White Wizard, he didn't so much gain the powers that Saruman posessed as surpass them completely. There was nothing Saruman could have done to resist or fight Gandalf when he came back to Orthanc.

[Majimaune]

So are you saying that when Gandalf went to Isengaurd and broke Saroman's staff that that was only because he had grown in power and Saroman had dwindled that he was able to do so?

[fanficfan]

Not so much that Saruman had dwindled but yes essentially. Gandalf's power had become such that he could command the most powerful orator in Middle Earth

[Majimaune]

Most powerful? Sauron was most powerful at that current time.

[fanficfan]

Again I disagree.
By that time everyone knew that Sauron was an evil git. They wouldn't have believed him if he'd told them that a crossbow bolt to the head was bad for you.
Sauron was once the most powerful, his skills at convincing and coersing others were unmatched for quite some time. But by then he was using fear, not skill.

[Majimaune]

But in that fear there would have been some skill. It seems that to discuse Gandalfs power we have to discuse everyone elses.

[fanficfan]

inho fear and intimidation aren't used by a truely skilled orator. You've read the Silmarilllion right Maj? Everyone thought Sauron (can't rememer what he called himself) was the greatest cause he seemed like a friend and taught them many things and he allayed their fears with his words.
By the time of LotR he wasn't a powerful or skilled orator, he doesn't even speak save for "I see you," to Frodo when he slips the ring on (FotR movie)

Well, to get a good idea of just how powerful he is then yeah we probably should discuss everyone. Want to do that here or start a new thread?

[erinion]

It says somewhere that as Sauron grew in strength or something he could no longer change form. Or is that Morgoth...

Anyway, Sauron had no need to confront anyone directly, unless he was challenged directly, such as Aragorn with the palantir and Denethor. In both cases, he proved that he was strong, but weakening without the ring, however his support strength was growing. Aragorn's willpower was stronger than Sauron's, and I think Denethor came close, but his mind cracked under the pressure.

One thing we cannot do, is discuss "his" physical strength and his mental strength. His physical strength, or actually his armies as I mean, we can discount from any arguments. His own personal strength would most likely be great, but without the ring I think he was seriously crippled.